Aaron Newell teaches you how to be tough for OCR.

 

 

 

Full Transcript

Rich Ryan: [00:00:00] Hello, how the heck are you today? We have a gem AirNow is one of the top OCR athletes in the game. In 2019. He finished third in Sweden for the Spartan ultra world championships and he finished fourth. Overall in Tahoe. So he had an awesome year in 2019. And this year he recently ran an FKC on the Adirondacks great range traverse, which is a crazy course, uh, that is very technical, very difficult.

[00:00:32] Um, and he’s been chasing it for a long time. So we’ve touched on that. And, uh, we also talk about. Some ways in which you can gain some crucial experience for ultra events, how you can harness a killer mindset and also the importance of listening to your body when bouncing back from injuries. So if you know anything about Aaron Knoll, you know, he is very entertaining.

[00:00:54] I found myself very entertained during episode. It was a blast. I think you’ll enjoy this conversation very much. Alright, here we go. Aaron.

[00:01:09] Aaron Newell. Hello.

[00:01:11] Aaron Newell: [00:01:11] Hi,

[00:01:12] Rich Ryan: [00:01:12] doing great. So far today, what’d you sipping on

[00:01:16] Aaron Newell: [00:01:16] athletic for the fifth time today

[00:01:19] Rich Ryan: [00:01:19] is crushing them, like it’s what do you think the athletic bruise will hydrate you the same way that like, uh, like bigger, you can use that as like a Gatorade or like a water.

[00:01:29] Aaron Newell: [00:01:29] I guess we’re going to find out it’s like 90 degrees here and it’s all I drink now.

[00:01:34] So basically what it’s got hops and some kind of barley wheat, I don’t know what’s in it, but it’s delicious.

[00:01:44] Rich Ryan: [00:01:44] There’s there’s carbs. It’s good. It is delicious. And I’ve, I’ve thought about this before, which will flavor. It will sleep with you. God, cause I’ve only had the, um, run free, which. Uh, something like that.

[00:01:55] That’s like

[00:01:56] Aaron Newell: [00:01:56] there, Amber, I’ve got the run wild and I’ve got the freeway, which is the double IPA. And since I just drank the run wild, I can do a direct comparison. This one is double the IPA

[00:02:08] Rich Ryan: [00:02:08] that’s that’s right. That one up. That’s a great review from, so dude, when I was, I was doing some, uh, some prep here and I Googled your name and I saw a, like a recruiting profile pop up that, you know, you see that like what people run in the colleges can look at it.

[00:02:24] And I saw Aaron Newell was like, Oh cool. I’m going to look at this. See what this is. But it was actually a kid from Westchester. Henderson is in high school right now. His PR is 53.1 in the 400. What could you run a 400 in

[00:02:37] Aaron Newell: [00:02:37] one high school? I probably ran faster than that. I think I ran like 50 to five.

[00:02:41] Nice. Maybe 52 flat. Yeah, I was on four by four. So I was on the, we had four by eights in New York

[00:02:51] Rich Ryan: [00:02:51] as well.

[00:02:52] Aaron Newell: [00:02:52] Yeah. So I did four by eights, but I was always like the 3,200 and the steeple and then the four byte. And then like, whatever else they needed me to do,

[00:03:02] Rich Ryan: [00:03:02] they would do a steeple and 3,200 in the same.

[00:03:05] Aaron Newell: [00:03:05] Yeah, it was awesome. Like, I would just blast out the steeple and then do the two mile and then like,

[00:03:17] Rich Ryan: [00:03:17] cause the steeple is only in a couple of high school places. So like whenever there’s like a national meet, it’s like the best. The top 10 are from New York and I’m like, kick it. And then there’s nobody else in the

[00:03:26] Aaron Newell: [00:03:26] race. We’re like, yeah, there’s basically nobody in the U S who does it. And New York loves it.

[00:03:31] So like, we’re pretty good at it.

[00:03:33] Rich Ryan: [00:03:33] Yeah. It’s cool event. Very cool event. Um, so yeah, this kid sounds like he needs to get faster than the 400 though. 53. One’s not going to get them recruited very far.

[00:03:41] Aaron Newell: [00:03:41] He’s the second fastest Aaron Newell in New York

[00:03:45] Rich Ryan: [00:03:45] on Google. Um, I know you were at you’re a handy dude. Um, what is like the, the thing you were most proud of that you built with your hands?

[00:03:56] Aaron Newell: [00:03:56] Uh, probably one of the two vans, I dunno. Oh yeah. I built two vans. So, uh, girls only date me so that I’ll build their van for them prior to dating Nicole. I did it another girl who got a van. And I built it out and we lived in that. Um, and then I did Nicole and she got a van and I filled it out and we lived in it.

[00:04:20] Rich Ryan: [00:04:20] What mistakes did you take from the first van project that you made sure to avoid in the second van project?

[00:04:26] Aaron Newell: [00:04:26] No. No, I think I just took the mistakes and just put those

[00:04:30] Rich Ryan: [00:04:30] blueprint. This is the original, like,

[00:04:32] Aaron Newell: [00:04:32] I can’t go wrong twice.

[00:04:34] Rich Ryan: [00:04:34] Let’s just do the same thing again. That is cool though. How long does it take to build out something like that?

[00:04:40] Aaron Newell: [00:04:40] So, I mean, I got like 90% of Nicole’s van done in like two weeks before big bear. And that was like pretty atrocious two weeks. Like it was not fun. Uh, so I dunno, 14 days, times like 10 hour days. So 140 hours to do 90% of it.

[00:04:58] Rich Ryan: [00:04:58] Can you train during that? Or was that like your training?

[00:05:00] Aaron Newell: [00:05:00] I wasn’t really training.

[00:05:02] I mean, I was like going out and like, I would like hammer and then I would like take two days off on accident because I like work for working hours on the van and it was just like super hot. So it was, it was not my favorite time.

[00:05:16] Rich Ryan: [00:05:16] So two vans. That’s cool. Companies, right. Aren’t the companies who will build out vans for you now.

[00:05:22] Aaron Newell: [00:05:22] Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually chore, Nicole actually just got hers upgraded by hosts, Ian host, six cousin who owns down by the river vans in Boulder. They like made some like really good finishing work on it and like, Pretty depth. Some of my mistakes and stuff that I just couldn’t figure out how to finish.

[00:05:41] They were like, Oh yeah, we’ll just like, do this crazy thing. And this crazy thing, I was like, all right, I don’t have to do it. So w w

[00:05:48] Rich Ryan: [00:05:48] when you start, when you get into van, like, it sounds appealing, right? Like everybody would, right. Is there something that is unforeseen? Like, cause I can imagine eventually like, Oh, did you not think about the pooping situation?

[00:06:01] Aaron Newell: [00:06:01] Oh no, I don’t. The pooping doesn’t bother me, but it definitely bothers other people. Like I’m like, Oh yeah, I’ll just. Who, wherever I don’t care. But other people have larger problems with that

[00:06:13] Rich Ryan: [00:06:13] in your experience to other experiences you’ve had

[00:06:16] Aaron Newell: [00:06:16] no, I mean, I like my ex ex girlfriend still lives in a van and Nicole lives part time in a van.

[00:06:23] So I mean, it’s bad, but it’s not that bad.

[00:06:27] Rich Ryan: [00:06:27] Is there anything that you could think? Cause I feel like there is like, okay, this space is tight. The bathroom situation. I feel like that was something that you would think about. Like I’ve never lived in a van, but if I was to like, do a, do a pros and cons, I’d probably be like, Hmm, pooping con what?

[00:06:41] Uh, so is there what like happened in it? Like for logistically, that was something that you’re like, Oh shit. I didn’t realize like, this was what I was going to be doing.

[00:06:51] Aaron Newell: [00:06:51] Oh yeah. I dunno. I mean, just like occasionally it’d be like, Oh, there’s literally nowhere to park that isn’t illegal to park for the night.

[00:07:01] And you’re like, well, I hope the cops don’t knock on the door. It was actually a bigger problem when I was living in the Subaru, because I like traveled the races and sleep in the Subaru. But like, Uh, in California, I went to, I don’t know, one of the races and they had a total ban on camping within the County.

[00:07:18] And the County was like 400 square miles or something. So I like literally couldn’t drive out of the County. And then they had a ban on fire too, so I couldn’t make food. And it was like the night before the race. And so I like parked on some like road that was like way out of the way. And at like 2:00 AM, like, I see lights from like five miles away that are just like total blinders.

[00:07:40] Like you’re like, Oh, it’s somebody rock crawling. And then I was like, Fuck. It’s the police. And I was like, just sitting there waiting for them to roll up and he rolled up and he’s like, you can’t sleep here, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, God damn it. And it happened like three races in a row.

[00:07:57] Yeah. I mean like most of the cops were like, yeah, you can’t stay here, but you can keep sleeping. Or like one night in like st. George, you saw, I got woken up by the cops and they were like, what are you doing here? And I was like, I just. Get up. And I run every morning and I rock climb in the afternoon and I run again.

[00:08:15] And they’re like, what are you doing that for? And I was like, Oh, I do obstacle course races. And they were like, Oh, like Spartan. And I was like, yeah, like Spartan. And they were like, that’s so cool. And I was like, I want to go back.

[00:08:29] Rich Ryan: [00:08:29] That’s like the beauty of Valley, the West coast. But if we try to pull that over here, they would be like, Oh, they need to get the fuck

[00:08:34] Aaron Newell: [00:08:34] out.

[00:08:36] Rich Ryan: [00:08:36] Whatever you’re saying. I don’t even care

[00:08:37] Aaron Newell: [00:08:37] if you need to have it.

[00:08:39] Rich Ryan: [00:08:39] Totally, totally. Um, so. So we’re doing the rapport round. We’re just going through some questions. Um, but, uh, what, what are some like bad recommendations you hear people give, uh, for other people who are like looking to get into OCR?

[00:08:56] Aaron Newell: [00:08:56] Uh, I don’t know people telling them to do a lot of CrossFit, I guess.

[00:09:01] Uh, I’m not a firm believer in the CrossFit is a healthy thing just because I see people who do CrossFit and they’re like, a lot of them are like pretty seriously injured a lot. Can you hear the lawnmower or whatever that is. Okay, perfect. Um, yeah, I don’t know. There’s just like, as far as people wanting to like perform at a high level, I think there’s this like weird disconnect between people who get that you have to run fast and.

[00:09:36] The other people who are like, Oh, I just go to the gym and I work out really hard and then I should be super fit. It’s like, you gotta, you just gotta put in a ton of hours. And then like, you got to have legs speed and you got to be able to run up mountains. You’ve got to be technically proficient coming down.

[00:09:52] And like, then like then worry about the obstacles. Like the obstacles are like 1% of the race. Like it’s such a small amount of time that you’re on an obstacle that like, why even. Worry about how efficient you are when you could put the same amount of time into running when that’s 99% of the race.

[00:10:12] Rich Ryan: [00:10:12] And really, you could even think of that in terms of like running and then probably carries like you should

[00:10:15] Aaron Newell: [00:10:15] probably be

[00:10:16] Rich Ryan: [00:10:16] doing carries more

[00:10:17] Aaron Newell: [00:10:17] than obstacles in life.

[00:10:19] Right? I obviously say that from like a pretty biased place. Cause I have no trouble on obstacles at all. But at the same time, like what, like, there’s so many people who are like, Oh, get my grip work in for the day. And they’re doing like an hour of like, just hanging out on a bar and it’s like, what? Why don’t you just go lift or

[00:10:39] Rich Ryan: [00:10:39] not lift, but like, Yeah,

[00:10:42] Aaron Newell: [00:10:42] more productive with your legs.

[00:10:45] Rich Ryan: [00:10:45] And that’s the, with, with the CrossFit thing, I can see how people can intuitively be like, okay. Like I need to work on transitions and being good, doing one thing and then doing another thing and then running. And like, they’re like, I feel like there’s a place to do like a workout and do something else, then run some more.

[00:11:00] But yeah. People. I see that like, they’ll do like all 400 and then they’ll do like 10 pushups, 10 pull ups, like 10 squats, 10, like cleans. It’s like, you got to start running again. Like at the time you’re spending not running. Like it’ll never be like that erase.

[00:11:14] Aaron Newell: [00:11:14] Yeah. It bothers me when people are like, Oh yeah.

[00:11:18] I’m like, I just do like quarter mile. And then I do 30 burpees and I do a quarter it’s like, why are you practicing burpees? Like, why are you planning to fail things like this? Just don’t just like run faster and just go through things slower. If that’s what it takes or go through them faster. And then you don’t get pumped and fall off.

[00:11:36] Right.

[00:11:36] Rich Ryan: [00:11:36] Right. Exactly. I’m doing it. I’m going to do that. Burpee 10 K. Do you follow the dudes? And I was like, Brad, you know, they do. So I’ve actually been practicing burpees cause I’m like. Well, this is going to suck. Have you done any virtual stuff or are you just kind of doing your own thing in the mountains,

[00:11:51] Aaron Newell: [00:11:51] virtual stuff?

[00:11:52] It just doesn’t do it for me.

[00:11:54] Rich Ryan: [00:11:54] The logistics of them typically don’t make any sense to like, Oh yeah. And if you take all this, you have to have a track. You have to have XYZ, but burpee 10 K or a beer mile, or you can do the beer mile.

[00:12:06] Aaron Newell: [00:12:06] I would maybe do a beer mile. It’s kind of tough though. Cause I’m like pretty much by myself here.

[00:12:11] So it’d be kind of sad to go to the track here at the high school and just by myself and

[00:12:19] Rich Ryan: [00:12:19] just be drunk and just be

[00:12:20] Aaron Newell: [00:12:20] like, what do I do? Have the cops show up and be like, so what are you doing?

[00:12:26] Rich Ryan: [00:12:26] Yeah. That might, might want to wait on that one. You can use athletic bruise. You can, you can.

[00:12:35] Aaron Newell: [00:12:35] I love them. They’re delicious, but I, I feel like that’s ethically against the beer mile rules.

[00:12:42] Rich Ryan: [00:12:42] I mean, you can knock out like a quarter of your daily consumption, just like in that little bit, have you done a beer?

[00:12:49] Aaron Newell: [00:12:49] So I did this really can I swear on this podcast?

[00:12:54] Rich Ryan: [00:12:54] A couple of times

[00:12:56] Aaron Newell: [00:12:56] I did this pretty fucked up beer mile in Montana. When I was working at the running store there and it was a craft beer mile.

[00:13:02] And it ran. It was on his grass course and it just zigzagged like a ton of them. It was just like one 80, one 80, one 80, one, 80, one 80, and then it ran through the brewery. And then you had to drink craft beers as your thing. And all of them started at like 6%. And so people were just like immediately throwing up, like on the assembly line inside, right.

[00:13:25] Rich Ryan: [00:13:25] Where you hammered, where you disliked.

[00:13:27] Aaron Newell: [00:13:27] Yeah, I was plastered at the end.

[00:13:28] Rich Ryan: [00:13:28] Yeah. Because if you do a light beer is like I’ve had a pretty strong buzz after just like with the highlights. I couldn’t imagine drinking anything that is above like 6%.

[00:13:38] Aaron Newell: [00:13:38] Yeah, no. And this was like an official one that had like prize money at the end and, uh, But I think I ran like 12 minutes or something, but it was like super attorney.

[00:13:49] And if you threw up, which I did, then you had to drink another one at the end and run another lap.

[00:13:56] Rich Ryan: [00:13:56] They just try to make it as. As jumbled as possible that where they like promoting, throwing up at this?

[00:14:02] Aaron Newell: [00:14:02] No, they, they, they just wanted it to be like crowd friendly and it was just like really funny to have it on the grass and just like turning constantly.

[00:14:11] Rich Ryan: [00:14:11] That doesn’t sound like any fun.

[00:14:13] Aaron Newell: [00:14:13] It was rough Daniel Boone though. So that was good.

[00:14:17] Rich Ryan: [00:14:17] Yeah. So I mean that you have that you can say you’ve done that to the craft beer. Sounds rough. Um, well, cool man, aside from that, why don’t you just give the listeners a bit more insight about who you are, who you are as an OCR athlete we got going on.

[00:14:31] Aaron Newell: [00:14:31] Uh, I’m Erin Newell recently. I do obstacle course races, occasionally trail run, rock climb guide. Uh, To other stuff,

[00:14:47] Rich Ryan: [00:14:47] but like, yeah, I had, I had a great year last year. Uh, people who have all a sport, you kind of came to prominence. I didn’t, we didn’t know each other before last year either. What was your 2000. No. We met at, uh, Jacksonville. Oh yeah.

[00:15:02] Aaron Newell: [00:15:02] You’re right. Cause you ran it down at the end. And I was like, nah,

[00:15:06] Rich Ryan: [00:15:06] who the fuck is this guy?

[00:15:07] I was like, who is this guy? I didn’t know who you were, you know who I was. And we were, we went back and forth there. Um, but, uh, what was your 2018? Like, were you in the sport and circuit then? Or what were you doing?

[00:15:16] Aaron Newell: [00:15:16] Yeah, so when I, that, that was the very first year. So I did Phoenix. That was my first race.

[00:15:21] I Xavi doll beat me because I. Like thought everything was hilarious and I’d run into obstacles and just start laughing, explaining stuff to me. Uh, and then I ran another one and then I did San Jose, which was a national series race and got fifth. Yeah. And well, if you watch the footage, they’re like Aaron Nolan is another guy.

[00:15:46] Aaron Nolan exists. And I know him, um, And they’re like, yeah, I failed obstacles a lot. So he’s really going to fall off the pace and blah, blah, blah. And I’m not him. So I didn’t do that. And, and then I did Seattle and all that time, my foot was broken. My foot was broken for like six years or something. And so in Seattle, it like really fell apart.

[00:16:09] My ankle really snapped in half fully. And then on my way down a big bear, I stopped at the best. Ankle surgeon for my navicular, which is like tiny bone in your foot is what I cracked. It just takes all the pressure running. Um, and he was like, all right, I’m operating on you tomorrow morning. And I was like, okay,

[00:16:31] Rich Ryan: [00:16:31] this for how long?

[00:16:35] Aaron Newell: [00:16:35] Yeah. So, so then pretty much I showed up in Tahoe and that was the first run I’d done. Since, or in 2018 and got like 20th or something.

[00:16:46] Rich Ryan: [00:16:46] Okay. So that makes sense. That like, kind of had a little bit of a broken season and then you came into 2019 and, and really had a great year fourth. Right. And Tyler this past year.

[00:16:57] Aaron Newell: [00:16:57] Yup. Yeah. So I like started the season a bit slow and then kind of like ramped it up and finally got fit in August and September.

[00:17:06] Rich Ryan: [00:17:06] Yeah, because we were talking to you at Jacksonville and even like Alabama. And he was like, yeah, I haven’t run. Like, this is the first time I’ve actually run. I was like, yeah, you haven’t been running.

[00:17:13] Oh my God. Um, so yeah, you could tell when you, when the fitness came around that you were, you were ready to really, uh, run with the top guys out here. And, um, you actually just said something really cool back East because you were living out West for a while, but you’re, you’re, you’re from the East coast and you just did the Adirondack, uh, great range traverse, right?

[00:17:34] Aaron Newell: [00:17:34] Yup. So I’m from Queensbury, which is like right on the edge of the Adirondacks. Um, and then, yeah, so I’ve, I’ve actually been running on the great ranch for over 10 years now and it’s just like, I think it’s the best trail I’ve ever been on. And I’ve been on a lot of trails, but it’s 10,000 feet of climbing and like the first 14 miles.

[00:17:57] And then you just like bombed downhill for nine miles and. Yeah, back inside the record Atkins has on and off, had the record for like over 10 years, I think.

[00:18:09] Rich Ryan: [00:18:09] So is that technically an MKT then it’s going to be on the site and the whole deal.

[00:18:15] Aaron Newell: [00:18:15] Yeah. Yeah. So they have Katie things kind of goofy, cause it used to like mean something and now people are just like putting in totally random.

[00:18:24] Just like Strava segments, basically. Like, Hey, I did this thing that nobody else has ever done. So I have the fastest known time and it’s like, ah, yeah, like I’ve worked super hard to get the great range FKC and like this random guy, like literally just like jogs, like doesn’t even try hard to do this like two mile thing.

[00:18:45] And he’s like, Oh, I got the FKG. So it’s like,

[00:18:49] Rich Ryan: [00:18:49] I feel like there should be like a limited amount that should only be like,

[00:18:54] Aaron Newell: [00:18:54] Yeah.

[00:18:55] Rich Ryan: [00:18:55] And then like, those are the ones. Why has it, why did they have they expanded it like that? Is it just

[00:19:01] Aaron Newell: [00:19:01] COVID like, so the people who started it there, they’ve now like become synonymous with the term FK T so like the bigger, the more that the site gets used, the bigger they get.

[00:19:13] And so they just want more people to do stuff with it.

[00:19:18] Rich Ryan: [00:19:18] They’re trying to make money,

[00:19:20] Aaron Newell: [00:19:20] trying to make money, which I don’t blame them, but it kind of just degrades the whole thing,

[00:19:24] Rich Ryan: [00:19:24] the integrity of the fastest known time. But, uh, but tell us a little bit about that. So like the, the, the race itself, it goes, I mean, aren’t there a couple of ranges that it kind of runs through?

[00:19:35] Um, or

[00:19:36] Aaron Newell: [00:19:36] how does, yeah, so the grade range is. I think that’s the actual technical name for it. Um, but yeah, so it’s just one range, but it goes all the way from Keene, which is the town. And then it just goes all the way to Marci, which is the highest point in New York. And it’s, uh, it’s described as like a murderer’s row of peaks because it’s just like up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up down, and it’s just super steep and super rugged.

[00:20:05] Rich Ryan: [00:20:05] Yeah. I heard that with the terrain itself. It’s like really narrow.

[00:20:10] Aaron Newell: [00:20:10] Yeah. You’re just getting like stabbed with sticks a lot of the time. And then other times it opens up onto like super wide open rocks labs and you’re just like, this is awesome. This is great. Um, and then you’re just back in the bushes, just getting slapped in the face.

[00:20:25] Rich Ryan: [00:20:25] And like, you you’ve done this before then, right? So like you were prepared for all this, or how did you prepare for this one in general? Or was it something that you just had residual fitness for? And you’re like, I’m here, I’m going after it? Or how did you kind of go like prepare for this one?

[00:20:37] Aaron Newell: [00:20:37] So I’ve actually tried to get this record and it’s gotten consistently faster for the past, like 15 years, but I’ve tried to get it since I was like 16 and I’ve like, Always been slightly too.

[00:20:50] I’ve always been like a year behind, like Atkins ran like five 56, and then as soon as he gets it to like five 40 something, I get it to like five 50 something and I’m like, God damn it. And then he brings it to like five 30 and then I get it at five 40. So like took years to like finally catch up. But, um, yeah, I dunno.

[00:21:13] Oh, as far as training goes for this. Uh, I actually didn’t think I was going to go for it, but I’ve just been biking a ton. I was kinda a little bit injured after my hundred miles snow race in Wyoming. My hip was kind of wonky, so I just kept riding my bike. I wrote it like a ton. I was doing like 25 or 30 hours a week on the bike.

[00:21:35] And like, just like lifting and liking, and that was it. And then just slowly for like eight or nine weeks ramped up the running and then was like, Oh, I think I’m pretty fit. I might as well give it a try.

[00:21:49] Rich Ryan: [00:21:49] And was that just the. Obviously replace the volume plus some doing that much on the bike. Yeah. Right.

[00:21:56] Like, so did you do that out of like the enjoyment of biking or you’re like, I want to stay as fit as possible on this. And how do you feel like that translate? Could you feel that it helped the ascend smudge or how did that kind of help you think.

[00:22:08] Aaron Newell: [00:22:08] Uh, I think it helps quite a bit with power hiking. Um, and then I think it helps a little bit with like everything else, just because like, you’re pretty much spinning it like 80 to 90 RPMs anyway.

[00:22:18] So it’s pretty close to running. Uh, if you get out of the saddle and crank a lot, then that’s pretty close to running. Um, But, I mean, I’m not a good cyclist. I’m like, I’m not comfortable on a bike. I don’t like it, but I talked to like Atkins about it and he’s just like, yeah, you just hammer on a bike. It’s it’s science, you know, you just do like four running workouts, then you’re super fit.

[00:22:42] And I was like, okay, works for me.

[00:22:46] Rich Ryan: [00:22:46] And like, how did you handle that type of one? Cause I can’t like I would, for me, if that, if I was to do something like that, I would almost replace the. Running like hours for hours with the bike. And just because I’m not comfortable on a saddle, I don’t know anything about it and I wouldn’t want to overdo it, but it was there that.

[00:23:03] Did you feel it, there was a point where you were overdoing it or was it just, did it feel intuitively? Like it made sense?

[00:23:09] Aaron Newell: [00:23:09] Uh, I mean, I’ve got like a wonky knee that kind of bugs me when I bike a lot, but it doesn’t ever get worse than just being wonky. So I don’t really care that much, but I don’t know. I have the theory that you just can’t get injured biking, and a lot of people sort of, which is not true, but it’s kind of just like, well, you kick it injured, biking.

[00:23:28] Oh, do you have 700 mile weeks on the bike? Go for it. Like, you’re just going to be really tired

[00:23:33] Rich Ryan: [00:23:33] and just sleep a little bit more, eat some more food. Um, but yeah. What are the, what would a bike overuse injury even

[00:23:40] Aaron Newell: [00:23:40] like? I mean, that’s the thing is like you would have to like get out of your saddle and hammer really hard and like tear something to have a bike injury or, or, or fall, or like pinch something or like really just ignore some.

[00:23:56] Like pain in your knee or something like that to the point where it’s really fucked up, but like, uh, it’s pretty hard to mess up on a bike, I think.

[00:24:05] Rich Ryan: [00:24:05] Yeah, I think you’re right. And like, so if you can hear the lights up a volume and just being able to go out and just sit there for so long,

[00:24:12] Aaron Newell: [00:24:12] was it

[00:24:13] Rich Ryan: [00:24:13] boring?

[00:24:15] Aaron Newell: [00:24:15] When I’m by myself, I just put music in or audio book or something like that. I don’t, I actually don’t listen to podcasts at all,

[00:24:26] but yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I kind of just was like, wow, my legs feel terrible every day. And like, I would like try and just to just like contract. My leg muscle, I just try and like flex it. And it was just like, Oh, that’s so tiring. Oh God. Like, they just felt like dead for like weeks. And I was like, well, this is my life now.

[00:24:47] And then I was like, it’s never going to go away. Like, I’m just going to be stuck like this forever. And then like a week off I’m biking and it’s just running a little bit more. And then like all the pep came back and I was like, Crushing. I was like, this is great. I’m spit.

[00:25:02] Rich Ryan: [00:25:02] Yeah. So with that transition, it did just kind of naturally come back, like you just over essentially just overloaded it.

[00:25:08] And then as you recovered, you got the adaptation. Are you going to have, is there a place for it you think still, like, are you still going to try to crank on it or are you going to supplement

[00:25:16] Aaron Newell: [00:25:16] volume 40 miles on the bike yesterday? Yeah, I’m, I’m trying to like find a happy medium, which is kinda tough for me.

[00:25:24] Cause I’d rather just like do a hundred mile weeks on the. Like running for just like hammer as hard as I can on a bike and not do both. But, uh, yeah, I mean, it’s kinda tough doing both just because like, if you like a bunch and then try to run and your legs are flat. Um, whereas like you can always bike.

[00:25:43] Like you can just. Spin slower. Like it’s not

[00:25:48] Rich Ryan: [00:25:48] true. Yes. I’m interested to see how you can, uh, if you will try to maintain both of them.

[00:25:53] Aaron Newell: [00:25:53] Yeah. I mean, Atkins does a great job of doing both and not getting injured and blah, blah, blah. Cause he’s amazing. But, uh, I’m not at Kings, but, uh, yeah, recently I’ve just been trying to do like more quality ish stuff running and then just like, if I want to go to junkie.

[00:26:13] Miles type stuff. I just get on the bike and just spin easy. Like my heart rates so low when I do it,

[00:26:21] Rich Ryan: [00:26:21] that’s the thing. Cause I’m not proficient on the bike in any way. So I’m, I don’t know if I just can’t crank on it enough, but I’ll get my heart rate much higher on like a spin bike that on a regular bike, just cause I just can’t really go.

[00:26:33] Yeah. And is that just a way to kind of preserve your legs? I guess not really worried about the aerobic benefit. Are you still getting

[00:26:39] Aaron Newell: [00:26:39] a little bit. I think you’re still getting an aerobic benefit. It’s just like really low level. Like it’s it’s I would equate it to like hiking, you know, except with this, you don’t have the downhill.

[00:26:51] So all you’re doing is just power hiking. So like, if, if you’re. Like into just sitting in a saddle for a couple of hours. Biking’s great.

[00:27:00] Rich Ryan: [00:27:00] Yeah, because it doesn’t make sense intuitively just to help the recovery from the pounding,

[00:27:08] Aaron Newell: [00:27:08] like a million reps of zero, like

[00:27:11] Rich Ryan: [00:27:11] right, right. It feels like how, like how’s like swimming would be, you know, you could swim for a long time, like Aqua jogging, which is not as awful.

[00:27:17] Aaron Newell: [00:27:17] Yep. I’ve done it so much. Awkward jogging. Not recently

[00:27:23] Rich Ryan: [00:27:23] that is just brutal. Like, do you, would you bike before  or is there a difference in

[00:27:31] Aaron Newell: [00:27:31] a perfect world? If I had to like plan my year and not be a space cadet, like I am, I would just bike in the winter and Nordic ski and Aqua jog. Like if, if you awkward jog a lot, you’ve got super snappy legs.

[00:27:46] Like, you’re just like,  like your legs are just moving really quick. Like getting through end points, like from your stride, it’s just. Wicked fast.

[00:27:56] Rich Ryan: [00:27:56] Huh? That’s true. Cause the cadence, it is just kind of, if you want to get that heart rate up, you do have to kind of pump it.

[00:28:02] Aaron Newell: [00:28:02] Yeah. You’re just hammering in the water, but like you can’t get your heart rate that high.

[00:28:06] So you’re just going really hard. It doesn’t really affect anything. Just your hip flexors and your glutes. Just get a little burned and that’s really about it.

[00:28:14] Rich Ryan: [00:28:14] Hmm.

[00:28:15] Aaron Newell: [00:28:15] Uh, yeah. I mean talk to Campsen about Aqua jog. He’s the Aqua jogging master, but I’ve just done a ton of like, Rehab from surgeries in the water.

[00:28:25] And it seems to translate pretty well.

[00:28:29] Rich Ryan: [00:28:29] You can see really fit. It’s just, if you can mentally just

[00:28:33] Aaron Newell: [00:28:33] mind numbing and then like, we’d get like a raw water aerobics class. Who’s like doing other stuff and they’re like, come join us. And I’m like, I can’t stand in the shallow in Baca.

[00:28:45] Rich Ryan: [00:28:45] Yeah, I could do that. Cause he barely move like a snail in the water. You’re not even going

[00:28:52] Aaron Newell: [00:28:52] to get to the end of the pool.

[00:28:54] Rich Ryan: [00:28:54] Um, so since you were back East, I read that article about the, was it a local paper that cause you know, again on Google, once I made it through our, our dude from West gestures, 53, one, I kept scrolling and uh, Came across this article when you were like a kid, like 17 amazing photo photo of you in that it looks like you’re drinking a Mike’s hard lemonade in this photo, always 17, but there, there isn’t FKC for where the Northville Lake Placid.

[00:29:22] Aaron Newell: [00:29:22] Yeah. So I’ve actually, so I was surprisingly close to it as a 17 year old without knowing that there is an FKC on it. Uh, I did it in like three days, I think, and the records like two and a half. Uh, and I had no clue what MKTs were. Um, I mean, relatively, like, I, I knew the great range existed, but at that time, like nobody really called it an FK to you.

[00:29:45] It’s just a record. Right. Um, And, uh, yeah, so I kinda want to go do it right now. Cause I’ve got nothing else going on. I’m like, well, I could just go get the overall record unsupported and get both.

[00:29:59] Rich Ryan: [00:29:59] Cause there is like a supported record. I was on that. Katie said, I don’t know how to navigate it that well, but it looked like there was some sort of supported one that was like an hour, a day in 13 hours or something.

[00:30:07] Aaron Newell: [00:30:07] Yeah. And that’s Cheryl Wheeler and she, she did it like. Okay. Like she went pretty fast and she was sort of a semipro ultra runner, but like that trail is pretty fast. Anyway. It’s just like kind of muddy and really buggy. So it’s really not that enjoyable of a trail

[00:30:28] Rich Ryan: [00:30:28] articles on a terrible, I was like, man, is it a cell phone at all?

[00:30:31] Aaron Newell: [00:30:31] Oh, yeah. And she liked the woman who wrote the article, just like butchered everything. I said, she was like, Oh yeah. And he just took his trash and gave it to the chip. I didn’t do that. Yeah, exactly. People were like, why are you feeding the wildlife trash? And I was like, I wasn’t like they came in and like stole food from my backpack.

[00:30:55] Rich Ryan: [00:30:55] So when you you’ve been doing these like Epic adventures, right? Like that was what, 10, 11 years ago. You’d literally in high school. Um, and so if I was to prepare for something like this, like I would probably go over the top, like physically and just trying to really make sure I wouldn’t fall apart and just like, not die, but like, what does that process like for you?

[00:31:14] I mean, you’ve been doing it for so long. Is there a. Uh, any type of preparation system that you go through or is there a part that, you know, you’re ready or are you just like, let’s just see how it goes.

[00:31:23] Aaron Newell: [00:31:23] I don’t know. I like to think that I’m like incredibly prepared for a lot of things and that I show up prepared and knowledgeable, but honestly, I’m, that’s like never the case and it’s rarely worked out that way.

[00:31:39] Uh,

[00:31:40] Rich Ryan: [00:31:40] like what do you mean? What’s an example?

[00:31:42] Aaron Newell: [00:31:42] Well, like the Northville plastic trails, the first one, like. I had like three days off from work. So I was like, okay, I’ll just go hike this. And then like 10 miles in, I realized that I’d need to run to be able to make it to the end in time. Cause it’s like 130 miles.

[00:31:58] And I was like, okay, I guess I’m doing some running on this, jog all the downhills and then like, okay. But I had like a huge backpacking. Pack on and like had a huge stove, had like all this other stuff. And I was like, okay, I guess I kinda messed this up. And I was like, pretty, pretty gutted by the end of it.

[00:32:15] But I like figured it out and I figured out like, what fast packing was at that point? I was like, Oh, you just go really light and you deal with it. And then like, More recently, uh, the race in Wyoming after spar, all the Spartan races got canceled, but I was like, Oh, there’s a race in Wyoming, a hundred miles on snow that I wanted to do anyway.

[00:32:36] And so I like quickly got together like a backpack that I’d never used and a bunch of gear that I’ve pretty much never used. And like drove up there, got to the race check in and the guy was like, Oh, I see. You’re going with the backpack and not a sled. I’ve made that mistake before. Yeah. I was like, what?

[00:32:58] Because I like knew that people use sleds for these like winter races, but I thought it was just for like really long stuff. Like the idea to rod, like, Oh, you got to carry 30 days worth of food, like sleds helpful. Um, but like, I’ve I’ve read like a ton of like Antarctic books that are like, Oh, if you, if like an Antarctic books is called, like man hauling where you just haul sleds.

[00:33:22] And it’s just like totally talked down upon and like a terrible idea on Antarctica. Cause w when they were like racing for the South pole and, but they were talking about it in the context of that versus going on skis or. With sled dogs and not in a hundred mile race on snow, on group trails. Yeah. And so, so I was like, whatever, I’m going with the backpack.

[00:33:47] And my backpack was like 30 pounds. Like it had all this required gear that was like a lot of gear and I just didn’t have super light stuff. Cause I had one day to prepare. And so like the race started 30 miles in, I’ve got like 20 minute lead on the next guy. And then like a couple miles later, just like something got pinched in my neck from the backpack weighing too much.

[00:34:13] And then I was just re I would randomly just be like jogging along and then I would black out and then I’d wake up on the snow and I’d be like, look around and I’d be like, I don’t think, Nope, nobody’s passing me. There’s like, no. And then like quickly, like the race, the guys behind me started catching up and they’re like, all right.

[00:34:35] I was like, yeah. This backpack. And they were like, ha yeah,

[00:34:41] Rich Ryan: [00:34:41] I don’t even know

[00:34:43] Aaron Newell: [00:34:43] they’ve got like this waist belt. They’ve got this waist belt usually. And they just tow it behind him. And like, there’s not like a ton of vert in this race. There, there is in the middle, it’s kind of like super hilly in the middle, but they ride the sleds down the sleds and ride them down.

[00:34:58] And so it’s like not super helpful on the way up to have a sled, but it 100% balances out. Like they, they get to ride them on the way down and on flat ground, the floods are. Like super fast. So I was like, Jesus, like I am stupid. And this was poorly planned out on my part. And like, literally all I needed to like make my life easier was to just like, have like a $5, like sled from like target or wherever.

[00:35:25] Rich Ryan: [00:35:25] That’s all it is. It’s just like

[00:35:28] Aaron Newell: [00:35:28] really nice, like fiberglass sleds that go really fast and they literally like wax them and stuff. Oh, my life would have been a thousand times easier with like, just a piece of junk sled and like some rope, like there it’s crazy. Yeah.

[00:35:43] Rich Ryan: [00:35:43] But at the same time, there’s a mat.

[00:35:45] There is an argument of like taking action, right? Like you could like sit back and wait for everything to be perfect and like draw things out and just never do anything. Or you can just go out and. Figure it out and maybe it works out sometimes and maybe it doesn’t, but then next time, you know, so is, is like when you are, so do you always, cause you, you have an ability to, to, to at least do volume, to like sit on a bike for a long time and to handle it and then to, to be able to keep training.

[00:36:17] Do you feel like that volume that you’ve been able to amass over this long time? Allows you to take action whenever you want, or is it just like, fuck it. I’m going whenever. It’s whenever I want to make it happen.

[00:36:27] Aaron Newell: [00:36:27] Well, like, like Kempson wanted to do this, like VT 4,000 thing in Vermont. And I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I’m pretty ready for it.

[00:36:35] I’m good at riding a bike. And I haven’t run in a cup like a while, like a month or a month and a half maybe. And I was like, well, like your legs are going to be dead from the biking and. I think I can run whenever. So, uh, that was like a hundred miles of biking. 22 miles of running the biking had 7,000 feet of climbing and the running had 12,000 feet of climbing.

[00:37:01] Uh, but yeah, I mean, that was another thing where we were just like, Oh, uh, it’s this is the day we picked as a really bad day. It’s 95 degrees and it’s like the hottest on record in Vermont

[00:37:14] Rich Ryan: [00:37:14] you’re back in the Northeast

[00:37:17] Aaron Newell: [00:37:17] Sampson was like, well, we’ll just go for it and deal with it. And I was like, Oh, okay. I guess that’s what we’re doing.

[00:37:26] Rich Ryan: [00:37:26] Um, and like, what was, what was the preparation that you guys had different? What was he? Same kind of thing. He’s like, all right, I’m going. And you just felt ready enough to.

[00:37:35] Aaron Newell: [00:37:35] So, I mean, I think at this point I can kind of just like figure it out. Like the I’m just going to keep using different races, but the 24 hour race in Sweden, I was like, wow.

[00:37:48] I felt like I was wildly unprepared, like just in recent training for that, because it was like, Race and Tahoe, like all there. Most of the races I’d done throughout the year were like shorter. I did like a couple shorter ultras, but that’s about it. And then like we had Tahoe, OCR, WC, trifecta, world championships, and then a week later, 24 hour race in Sweden with 30,000 feet of climbing in 24 hours.

[00:38:14] And so I was like, whatever, I’m screwed, but then like, I don’t know, you just figure it out and you just keep running, keep moving.

[00:38:23] Rich Ryan: [00:38:23] So

[00:38:26] Aaron Newell: [00:38:26] I think that there, there, there is like such a thing as just like once you’ve done a really long effort, you can do it more easily next time. And then like, when you’ve got like a bunch of them, then you can like really easily do it.

[00:38:39] Um, and like, you can just like bring it up, like, uh, Like the a hundred mile race in Wyoming, I was prepping for a three mile race in Jacksonville. My longest run beforehand was like 12 miles or like 18 miles or something. And it was like flat and on pavement, not in Wyoming. I think it’s just like, W once you do it a couple of times, it’s easier to do it again.

[00:39:07] Rich Ryan: [00:39:07] And do you think you’ve just taken the fear out of it? Like, do you think that you just, because thinking about something like that, I’d be like, I can’t, because I’m not prepared and about, I’ve never done one before, you know, it would be kind of, I would be scared of that distance. I’d be like, I don’t know what’s going to happen.

[00:39:23] Does that just, do you just not feel that or does that distance?

[00:39:28] Aaron Newell: [00:39:28] Yeah, definitely pretty scared of it. Uh, It’s it’s just like problem solving. It’s it’s it’s troubleshooting, but on a. Like the, the level of like your body. You’re just like, Oh, if I keep pushing, then my hamstrings are gonna shut down or like, Oh, my adductors are seasoning.

[00:39:47] What do I do? And then like you just figure it out. Like, uh, the race in Sweden, I kept flipping over the cargo nets early on. And then I had this like crazy pain in my abdomen. And I thought I tore my abs like a little bit. And. At like mile 40. I was just like, guys, I like, literally can’t run downhill at all.

[00:40:10] Like I’m just walking down Hills at this point. And they were like, Oh no, you gotta keep going. And I was like, I think I gotta drop out. Like I can’t keep going. And they were like, I have have like some ibuprofen and some caffeine pills. And I was like, Oh, I forgot

[00:40:22] Rich Ryan: [00:40:22] about it. I

[00:40:24] Aaron Newell: [00:40:24] just took like two of them and a caffeine pill.

[00:40:26] And then I was like, Problem solved, but like early on in that race, like my hamstring sees 10 miles in and my adductor sees, cause I hadn’t run on snow and twit like 12 months, something like that, like 10 months. And I was like, Oh, I’m so screwed for the rest of this. But then like you just, your body adapts to it or you figure out how to run on it.

[00:40:50] And then. I dunno, like how things are going to go wrong. That’s just how like long efforts go like kit, like Kempson had never done anything longer than like four hours before that Vermont thing. And that was 15 hours and he was just like, yeah, I don’t know what’s going to happen. So I just like. Paste it like the way I would pace it.

[00:41:10] And he’s like a really good athlete, but like problems came up and he just figured it out. And it was really hard for him, but like he got through it.

[00:41:20] Rich Ryan: [00:41:20] Cause that is, that is the case, right? Like things are going to go wrong. And there is a point where a lot of people stop, you know, and during these long events, Almost just like a race of attrition to that point.

[00:41:31] So when things are going like, Oh, I tore something in my ads, I should stop not stop.

[00:41:38] Aaron Newell: [00:41:38] Uh, I don’t know. I definitely have this like running dialogue in my head where like narrate things or talk to myself and say stupid stuff, but, uh, Like, unless it’s like something that’s like really, really, really gonna injure me, which like, I dunno, like I run on a broken foot for so long that I just.

[00:42:01] Don’t care. And I think I’m pretty good at just running on like a damaged body. So like when things break down, I’m just like, whatever, I can just keep running. I don’t need a hamstring. So, uh, so I just keep running, but I think there’s like some degree of like a mental game in there where I just like.

[00:42:21] Take things and like make them very personal, like the race in Sweden. I like just developed this like, like pure unadulterated hatred for the Swedish guy who is in front of me, who I’d never met. And I just like turned them into this like total villain. And I was like, I’m gonna

[00:42:38] Rich Ryan: [00:42:38] kill you. It’s probably a really nice, nice guy.

[00:42:41] He’s

[00:42:43] Aaron Newell: [00:42:43] like, we talk on the internet and we’re like, yeah, we should go run together sometimes. But like in the middle of a race, Like I, for the most part, I stopped being like being funny and whatever else I am, and just like turn into like taking everything very personally and make it so that like, yes, I’m very tired.

[00:43:06] Yes. Things hurt, but like, This is a personal, like, I just take everything personally and just get really angry and well, maybe not angry, just like mad. And I’m like, Oh, I want to like pair this person to shreds.

[00:43:20] Rich Ryan: [00:43:20] And I get that from you just seeing you on the course. There’s like a ferocity that you have that you might not have when typically just talking like that is harnessed there.

[00:43:29] And it’s sort of like, it’s like a constant.

[00:43:34] All right. We’re competing and I’m going for it, or is it just like happened when you’re out there

[00:43:39] Aaron Newell: [00:43:39] now? Like it’s, it’s, it’s definitely it definitely. I definitely get that running dialogue more in like a longer race, but like, like if you asked me before a race, if I think I can win it, I’ll just be like, no, probably not.

[00:43:53] Like. This person’s better than me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, as soon as the gun goes off or like I’m on the starting line, I’m just like, I am the best person here and nobody can beat me and I am amazing. And like it, and it’s not even like a conscious thing. I’m not like, okay, do you like mental prep?

[00:44:11] I’m just like, I am ready to tear these people. Lymphoma just make their lives total hell. And then like, I’ll be like in the middle of a sandbag and I’ll like, somebody will be doing it with me and I’ll be like, why do they think that

[00:44:25] Rich Ryan: [00:44:25] they must be crazy right now?

[00:44:27] Aaron Newell: [00:44:27] I’m going to destroy you. And then it’s like, the wheels come off and I’m like, Oh,

[00:44:34] Rich Ryan: [00:44:34] and it’s just gone.

[00:44:36] That’s funny. The, um, did you like the Michael Jordan documentary that came out? Did you see any of that? There’s like this one part where this guy that is playing against had a good game against him. And so he made, he said that this guy like made some condescending remarks toward him at the end of the game.

[00:44:54] And the next game Jordan went out and scored, like, I don’t know, 50. And then, and then he told like, the report is a story about this guy, send this kind of sending thing. And then like years later, 10 years later, he’s like, Oh yeah, I made all that up.

[00:45:05] Aaron Newell: [00:45:05] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think that that happens with me to agree to, it’s like to a fault as well.

[00:45:11] Like I definitely like. Make things up in my head. And then I like forget whether or not they were real

[00:45:24] Rich Ryan: [00:45:24] friends, but I guess, yeah.

[00:45:27] Aaron Newell: [00:45:27] I’m like, fuck you asshole. But like, like in my head I’m like, uh, he like, yeah, I don’t know. Like everything somebody does in a race is like, Personal where we’re like Kempson in Jacksonville, like Greg like threw a threw arm in front of me in the water. And I was like, I’m going to fucking,

[00:45:50] Rich Ryan: [00:45:50] it’s the wrong one.

[00:45:51] Not today. The, um, and like, does that, do you facilitate take that in training at all? Or is that something that is just the next level up?

[00:46:02] Aaron Newell: [00:46:02] Well, I mean, like. Maybe a little bit in training, like Kempson definitely saw some of it in Vermont. Like I started to go a little, a little crazy from the heat. Like we both got heat exhaustion pretty bad.

[00:46:15] And I was like, Just doing like a constant like systems check on like whether or not we were going to die. Like, which one of us is going to get a he’s drug first. And, uh, like I just kept like talking to him about stuff. I’d be like, we’re like, The biggest monsters, like

[00:46:38] a T Rex, but like, we’re like the cyber T Rex and like your X five who like rips that to your ex apart, or also like the giant, like sea creature that comes out of the water and kills that T-Rex

[00:46:50] Rich Ryan: [00:46:50] that’s me and you right now.

[00:46:51] Aaron Newell: [00:46:51] Was he like,

[00:46:55] Rich Ryan: [00:46:55] was he like, yeah, for sure. That’s what we are right now. And he’s like, dude, we

[00:46:59] Aaron Newell: [00:46:59] did the talking and I just like kept talking and telling him that like about how big of monsters we were

[00:47:05] Rich Ryan: [00:47:05] that he’s probably thinking his hit his head is like, Aaron’s lost it. We have to stop.

[00:47:09] Aaron Newell: [00:47:09] I made like 50 different analogies for like the kind of Mazda.

[00:47:12] I was like, like Peter, the guy who did this before is like the monster under the bed. And we’re like the monster that lives in the Marianas trench, like we’re going to destroy cities, entire continents are going to die

[00:47:25] Rich Ryan: [00:47:25] monster under the bed. Yeah. Right. Kick that thing back under there. Um, and so like th the injuries that you’ve come across.

[00:47:35] Like you’ve been pretty hurt saying that you’ve run on a, like a broken foot and, and just kind

[00:47:42] Aaron Newell: [00:47:42] of

[00:47:43] Rich Ryan: [00:47:43] both of them.

[00:47:44] Aaron Newell: [00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:46] Rich Ryan: [00:47:46] So when you come across these, is it like just typical overuse or was it like a traumatic thing? What happens when you get hurt?

[00:47:53] Aaron Newell: [00:47:53] Well, pretty much everything stemmed out of one thing. In particular, I had Giardia and mano at the same time when I was in college in Colorado.

[00:48:03] Um, and so I was like living at like 8,000 feet and had Giardia and had mano and I didn’t know it and I kept running through it. And so. I tore the labor room in my hip and I broke my foot and then I got surgery on the hip while the foot was broken. And so I had to crutch her around and I got surgery on the foot, had to crutch around.

[00:48:25] And because of all that crutching, it was like two years of crutching. And because of all of it, I broke the other foot and then I had to get surgery on that one. And meanwhile, the surgery that they did on the other one didn’t fix it. And so like that one was broken for like six years while I was getting operated on the other, like it’s, so it’s really confusing.

[00:48:47] And like for most doctors, I literally have to like, Write it out, like make a timeline for them and like draw out what was happening with what foot, because they just like, can’t figure it out when I just say it. They’re like, how did you break so many things? And I’m like only like two bones it’s near vicular in the left foot and the vicular in the right foot.

[00:49:08] But. All the crunching and like wheelchairs and just like killed the other one too. So, and then it’s really hard to operate on one foot when you’re walking on the other foot. I really should have just been put in a wheelchair and just had screws stuck in both. But it nearly, no doctors think that through.

[00:49:27] They’re just like, Oh, we’ll just operate on this one and then operate on the other one. And it like, it just, I don’t know, it doesn’t work that way. I should have just been in a wheelchair and dealt with it.

[00:49:38] Rich Ryan: [00:49:38] How has that affected, like the training, like since then, does that still, does it still bother you?

[00:49:43] Is it something that is lingering or what was that process like coming back? Cause that’s pretty, that’s pretty dramatic. I mean, most runners, they get a stress fracture in their shin, you know, the it band syndrome, maybe they stress fracture in their femur if it’s awful, but like bringing the top of the foot, it’s pretty tough.

[00:49:58] And foot surgeries, like.

[00:50:01] Aaron Newell: [00:50:01] Yeah, unfortunately, it’s the bone that sort of takes the impact jogging uphill and doing any sort of speed work. So. Like, it just hurts when I run on flat grounds. Like, it just doesn’t feel that good. It it’s. Okay. Now, except now my hips kind of wonky still. And like I did like 10 miles a day and it was fine, but some, sometimes stuff hurts and sometimes it doesn’t and I just kind of deal with it, but like I can, if I really want to, I can like crank out a hundred miles a week and just like, be a little beat up at the end, but no matter what, I’m always a little beat up.

[00:50:39] So it’s.

[00:50:41] Rich Ryan: [00:50:41] Yeah. And like, that’s the thing with, with training at a high level, you’re always going to be. A little bit

[00:50:48] Aaron Newell: [00:50:48] wrong, like, like, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s hard to know where like the edge of like going too far is without going slightly too far.

[00:50:57] Rich Ryan: [00:50:57] That’s what we’re trying to figure out the whole time. It’s like, I think I’m good.

[00:50:59] I’ll just keep going. And then

[00:51:02] Aaron Newell: [00:51:02] I’m only doing 90 miles this week. Why shouldn’t I just do a hundred

[00:51:08] Rich Ryan: [00:51:08] in college free for sure. I was like, I’m always a little bit hurt. Like I’m never completely healthy. Or just like, just on the brink. So I was like, I can do anything. It’s like, I can’t go over stairs too fast.

[00:51:17] Cause I might get hurt. I might be hurt. So I better pull, pull things back.

[00:51:23] Aaron Newell: [00:51:23] Um, and I do think having a coach probably helps that, but I don’t like having a coach because. They tell me to do things. And, and I, and I like what, like I had woodsy coach me for a little bit, but like he’ll tell me to do stuff.

[00:51:37] And then that day I’ll come around and it’ll be like a big workout. And I’ll just be like, it just happens to be a day in which my ankles hurt a ton or like my hip hurts. And I’ll be like, I’ll try, I’ll still try to go run it. Whereas instead if I’m not cold, but capitalize on the good days. And if it’s a bad day, Do something else or don’t do anything like last week I had like two or three days on her own, which I did nothing.

[00:52:03] So,

[00:52:04] Rich Ryan: [00:52:04] and that’s something that I think that we’re trying to get to a point with like the wearables, like, you know, the whoop or the aura ring or whatever, to have some sort of. Quantifiable like feedback to tell you when you don’t feel good, but like, yeah,

[00:52:19] Aaron Newell: [00:52:19] you just gotta feel it for yourself. Like the whoop strap and HRV work well on like a hormone and like just all over body.

[00:52:30] But like, if something hurts, it hurts, like HRV is not going to pick that up.

[00:52:35] Rich Ryan: [00:52:35] Totally. And, and the opposite, I think is that, that is true. If your training is structured in a way for completely healthy, if you don’t have like extra pains like this, you’re probably kind of. Dude the recovery for you. So is that kinda how you do kind of approach your, your training when it comes to quality stuff?

[00:52:50] Is it just you’ll have like a basic outline of what you feel like you need to get done and whenever you feel like you’re ready to, to like strike it, you’ll, you’ll jump on it. Or how does that work in Nicky training?

[00:53:03] Aaron Newell: [00:53:03] Basically, well, like right now it’s a bit up in the air just cause we don’t have any races, but, uh, but uh, I actually really like making training calendars, but I don’t typically tend to follow that.

[00:53:20] I think I’m really great at making training schedules really bad at following them, but I, I tend to follow, like I at least try and get the miles in and then like, If I worked out really hard two days ago, I’ll probably do a workout tomorrow. And if I took a day off yesterday, I’ll probably go slightly harder today if I feel good.

[00:53:42] Um, but yeah, it’s like pretty much a day by day thing, but I also know. That like how things should be structured. Like I’m not going to do like five long runs in a row just because I feel, I don’t think so.

[00:53:57] Rich Ryan: [00:53:57] Um, and that’s something I’m curious about for someone like you can handle so much volume. Um, is that how, like, what is your intensity work look like?

[00:54:08] Are you doing traditional.

[00:54:11] Aaron Newell: [00:54:11] I love going easy. Like that’s my favorite thing is just going slow for forever. So, uh, but, but like for Jacksonville, I like actually knuckled down and was like, alright, I’m gonna try and get fast. And like, If you look at my Strava compared to like everybody else’s and I do this all the time where I just look at other people’s Strava.

[00:54:34] I’m like, how the hell are they so fast? Like in training. And then like, we get to the race and I can run just as fast as pretty much anybody else. Cool. I did something. Right. But like, yeah. So I would suggest people not look at other people’s Strava’s or at least like, not look at it and be like, Oh, they’re going to beat me because they’re there they’re training faster than me.

[00:55:01] Like it, it happens all the time. Yeah. You can’t,

[00:55:04] Rich Ryan: [00:55:04] you can’t put weight on it, especially in OCR where like, it just doesn’t compare right.

[00:55:09] Aaron Newell: [00:55:09] Where there’s like other variable, like. I don’t think that there’s that many other variables in OCR, there’s just running, being able to carry and then obstacles. But like, there is other variables because like, you can be really good at running.

[00:55:22] You can be really good at caring. You can be really good at obstacles. You can be good at all those things, but like, if you fold up after carrying a sand bag, then who cares how good you are at? Like, I don’t know if can’t listen to this podcast, but Kent. Is like notorious for being like on the best carrier here, picking up a sand bag, running with it, smashing everyone to pieces and then not being able to run afterwards.

[00:55:47] Like he did that in Utah. Like he was the fastest person through the sandbag and then he was walking. Yeah. And he was like, why did you even bother doing like. You knew what was going to happen? It happens all the time where people are just like, I’m really good at this one thing. So I’m just gonna smash it in this race.

[00:56:07] And it’s like, why don’t you just go slightly slower and capitalize on the fact that you might feel slightly better afterwards.

[00:56:13] Rich Ryan: [00:56:13] And especially when, in terms of straddle, you can’t look at anyone’s Cary workout and compare yourself on, on

[00:56:19] Aaron Newell: [00:56:19] that. I don’t know how much.

[00:56:23] Rich Ryan: [00:56:23] Right. Like in what terrain you’re looking at?

[00:56:25] Like there’s no like benchmarks and like, even like, you know, like, like five K’s that talk about is log five. K’s I don’t think they translate. I don’t think anything that you can do outside of like the actual race. Yeah, translates in any way. Um, but you do have the ability to run fast. I mean, we, we you’re faster than Aaron Newell and in Westchester Henderson,

[00:56:45] Aaron Newell: [00:56:45] I was faster.

[00:56:46] I definitely can’t rip that off. Now. I can, I’d be lucky to go.

[00:56:50] Rich Ryan: [00:56:50] I was gonna say I did a 400 may, two years ago and it was like, 59. And I was like, okay. I could be, it could be like the alternate on like a, okay. Women’s four by four in high school. I could be on that team. Um, but, but like, so like there, there is like, you have the ability to make it and like, yeah.

[00:57:11] In Jacksonville, like you were, it wasn’t like. Like you were up there from the start, right? Like you put yourself in a position to run as fast as everybody, and then like that you were able to do that. Um, so when you are putting intensity work, you’re just kind of doing, are they like tempo type runs

[00:57:25] Aaron Newell: [00:57:25] when, um, I don’t, I, I really don’t think that like, having like strict, really good, like good looking workouts matters that much.

[00:57:35] Like I’ll just go to like eight by 400 and then it’s two mile. It just seems to work out, being able to like hit different paces, like seems helpful. Or, or I’ll just do like two by two mile or 20 by 200, like there, I just do a bunch of different workouts and then I’m like, cool. I hope to me running fast.

[00:58:03] And like, if you run fast in training, you’ll probably run fast in a race. Um, Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. I do think of myself as like two different athletes in time. Like I was fast in high school relative to other high schoolers. Like I was like a little bit under 16 in the 5k and like pretty good descender on trails.

[00:58:30] And then like six or seven years of leg surgeries later, I was like, Oh, I can. Jog uphill slowly, but like now I’m finally like at a point where I’ve like, sort of turned that around and now I can do both. Like, I can kind of run fast ish and like bomb down trails and jog up Hill slowly.

[00:58:52] Rich Ryan: [00:58:52] And just a matter of like stringing the training together, you’re able to kind of, cause I mean, that, that would, that’s what it sounds like to me is like, if you’re making progress and it gets stunted from an injury or something like that, you can’t put all these pieces together, but it seems like that you’re able to kind of.

[00:59:07] Have continuous training to feel more well rounded.

[00:59:11] Aaron Newell: [00:59:11] Yeah. Like this is the first time I’ve trained consistently in a decade, like it’s and it’s been like three months, like four

[00:59:21] Rich Ryan: [00:59:21] months.

[00:59:23] Aaron Newell: [00:59:23] So like, I do feel like I’m like fit and fast and like could maybe go do like a 16 minute 5k and go do some mountain stuff for the first time ever, like be able to do both.

[00:59:35] Um, But yeah, I think that’s just like a time thing, you know, you’ve just got to spend time doing both to be able to do both.

[00:59:45] Rich Ryan: [00:59:45] So yeah. I don’t think they’re exclusive either. It’s just a matter of how you’re going to structure out the training. And where are you going to spend your time? Like you said, um, and you’ve been in the weight room a little bit, right?

[00:59:52] You were over the Mo the mustache dojo.

[00:59:54] Aaron Newell: [00:59:54] Yeah. Yeah. So, so they actually do really cool stuff. Um, and I was pretty against it. I was like, weightlifting is stupid. Why would I waste my time lifting weights when I could just be jogging slowly? Uh, and part of that was that lifting weights kind of hurts my ankles and it doesn’t feel good.

[01:00:14] And. Like it makes me sore afterwards. And so I just like, didn’t do it for a long time. And then now I’m doing a nails, like a two 28 marathoner and Dylan is there her strength coach and.

[01:00:31] Rich Ryan: [01:00:31] The show was on an episode a couple months back. So

[01:00:35] Aaron Newell: [01:00:35] go and Morag, Leah,

[01:00:36] Rich Ryan: [01:00:36] look him up dojo.

[01:00:39] Aaron Newell: [01:00:39] But yeah, like Nell is like super powerful and it’s because she does like a bunch of strength work and their focus is a lot on just like power, like being able to like.

[01:00:49] Make sure that you get as much power out of every stride. Um, and so like, I’ve definitely done a lot more of that than I’ve ever done. And by that, I mean, like

[01:00:59] Rich Ryan: [01:00:59] I’ve done some,

[01:01:02] Aaron Newell: [01:01:02] um, well, like actual, like power pliers and. Yeah, it seems to help. And it seems to like make my body feel better and I’ve been dead lifting and squatting and all the usual things that people do that I’ve never done.

[01:01:16] And it makes my body feel better on the whole. And I think it makes you like more well versed and be able to do different things. If your body’s stronger, like I can go run fast and I can go run a hundred miles in Wyoming and not be like destroyed. Like two days later after that, I mean, I was. Like I tanked so hard and then just like walked for forever, like an endless amount of time.

[01:01:43] Yeah. It was like the never ending staircase in Mario. I don’t know if you ever played it on the  you just keep walking in the same spot. And he was like two days, like two days later I was like running workouts. So. Like being strong has its benefits, having strong legs. I really don’t think I would advocate for like, having like super strong arms or being able to do biceps.

[01:02:09] Rich Ryan: [01:02:09] And like what you said about like, just how it makes your body feel. Because I think that that’s something that. People like runners from a traditional background, like might not even understand, so they won’t make time for it. But if you’re able to feel the difference that you get, like you’ll make time for it.

[01:02:24] Like the same, like with anything else. Right. Like it’s like, okay, well I liked that part. So let me still kind of craft this in here.

[01:02:31] Aaron Newell: [01:02:31] Well, you definitely got to get through the initial like month or two of like every single time you lift. You’re like, so incredibly sore afterwards that you like can’t move.

[01:02:41] And then like, after that it like planes out and like, I can go lift and. I mean, maybe I’m not lifting heavy enough, but like,

[01:02:48] Rich Ryan: [01:02:48] no, I think you’re right. Yeah. And you can go run. You can run right after.

[01:02:50] Aaron Newell: [01:02:50] Yeah. You don’t get totally destroyed. So there’s like a two or one or two months, like break in period where like stuff sucks and it hurts, but that’s just learning new things.

[01:03:01] Rich Ryan: [01:03:01] Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, I mean, so I was like, couple of days got one or two more questions and. Basically just, I’m just curious about like what you kind of have planned, because I know you’re a competitive dude. Like you are the monster that is. Will stomp the monster under the bed

[01:03:19] Aaron Newell: [01:03:19] that

[01:03:21] Rich Ryan: [01:03:21] only sometimes, but like, you’ll stick your nose and you’ll go after it.

[01:03:24] But I also get the sense from you just from like observing you and being around you a little bit around the races that you duties, uh, because you like them, like you do the races and like you’re just involved. You’re into it. You’ll do something that you think is cool, just because for no other reason, but then it’s cool.

[01:03:39] Um, and it just happened to harness, uh, Competition aspect of it. So like what what’s like your ultimate goal with OCR? What do you think? Like, where is this going to take

[01:03:46] Aaron Newell: [01:03:46] you? Uh, I mean, I don’t know how this will look, but, uh, I would like to be at a point at some point have sponsors who are like, what would you like to do?

[01:04:01] And like, not just be like, Hey, we like that you racist CR like, I want them to be like, Hey, Do you have like cool ideas on things, which like, I think I’m kind of getting there, especially with COVID they’re like, people are just like, can you like, do something cool? Like we just need something. And so I actually got into rock climbing to, because I was like, I want to become a Mountaineer.

[01:04:25] And, uh, then I realized that like, Traditional mountaineering. And like the Himalayas is pretty lame and it’s not that cool. It’s just like walking uphill for months. And, uh, like one of my idols is ULI Steck and he’s dead now, but, uh, probably because he is too bad ass, like he did this awesome stuff where he would just like, Solo up the biggest mountains on the planet and just put up these like mind bending routes like that people would just like assault for like weeks on end.

[01:04:59] And he would do it in like 24 hours and then he would down climb it and he’d be like, all right, let’s let go have lunch. Whereas like people would like die up there and like, just because they spent so much time. And so I think. That’s like where eventually I would like to be, because I’m like a drastically fitter person than pretty much every Mountaineer and Alpine climber.

[01:05:21] And I have this like very rare skillset of like being able to climb really hard and like move well in the mountains and be really fit. And like, there’s really just not that many people out there, like Atkins is one of the only other people. And I like at least rock climb and ice climb better than him, but like, There’s real.

[01:05:41] Like if we roped up together in the Himalayas, like that would be sick, we can do so many cool things. And like, I think that’d be awesome. That’s that’s, that’s where like, long term that’s like, if you’re like 10 years from now, where do you see yourself? I’m like tied to the side of him.

[01:05:56] Rich Ryan: [01:05:56] And that’s, that’s kinda what I was asking.

[01:05:58] Cause that’s like what I feel from him. That’s I can see it, like, from what I observed, like, you guys were just doing this, this cool. Like you would do other things. They were cool and could like help facilitate where you want to go. Um, so I think that’s cool. I think you should do that.

[01:06:13] Aaron Newell: [01:06:13] I

[01:06:13] Rich Ryan: [01:06:13] think that’s what you should do because I just had somebody pay for you to do it.

[01:06:16] Aaron Newell: [01:06:16] Yeah. That’d be great if it was that easy.

[01:06:20] Rich Ryan: [01:06:20] Um, well, cool, man. What are you thinking for the rate? Are you thinking, just racing at all? What do you think’s gonna happen?

[01:06:24] Aaron Newell: [01:06:24] Uh, uh, I’ll give it like a seven 60 to 70% chance of West Virginia happening.

[01:06:33] Rich Ryan: [01:06:33] They seem pretty aggressive there, but I did see Coby cases.

[01:06:37] Yeah.

[01:06:38] Aaron Newell: [01:06:38] But luckily West Virginia is a state, which is like, People die.

[01:06:45] So we’ll see. And then I think Tahoe will happen in some capacity, even if, at least for us, I think it’ll happen in some capacity. I think they really want content to the point where they’d be like, please fly out and raise. And it’ll just be prose.

[01:07:01] Rich Ryan: [01:07:01] That’d be crazy.

[01:07:02] Aaron Newell: [01:07:02] I know. Literally nothing more than anybody else.

[01:07:05] I don’t have any insider speculation. I love speculators. I really hope both the RWC happens cause everybody is freaking phenomenal. I love that race.

[01:07:16] Rich Ryan: [01:07:16] I think Vermont is cracking down pretty hard to like, we don’t want any COVID. I think they’re doing the best out of any state and it’s because I don’t think they want shit happening in there.

[01:07:24] So. Nope. Um, but that would be cool. So she gets there. Um, but I I’d imagine the same for Killington. Where are you going to, were you going to do the,

[01:07:32] Aaron Newell: [01:07:32] um, they, people want me to do the ultra race because, and I wanna do the ultra race. Cause like, if I don’t go that terrain, exclusively suits Ryan Atkins. And so like, it’ll just be a blowout.

[01:07:48] Like it’s not even going to be a race, he just gets to. Collect

[01:07:54] Rich Ryan: [01:07:54] that money.

[01:07:55] Aaron Newell: [01:07:55] He goes up and he collects, and then he thresh for Tahoe. Whereas I want somebody to like push him. So he’s dead for Tahoe,

[01:08:01] Rich Ryan: [01:08:01] but you want to raise

[01:08:03] Aaron Newell: [01:08:03] as well in Tahoe and it OCR WC. So I mean, if, if ultra champs ends up being the only race that’s going to happen, then I’ll show up and I’ll let you chat

[01:08:13] Rich Ryan: [01:08:13] because I worry about California.

[01:08:14] They’re just being so stressed and then I’ll see them. Like reigning back at all. And th their, their cases are still going up in like Southern California. Now they’re just going statewide. Like, I think they were, were easing up on some things, but I, I could even like, don’t come here. We don’t want you here.

[01:08:30] Aaron Newell: [01:08:30] Yeah. I feel like California is total question Mark there. Like I was supposed to go there and rock climb guide for kids camps. And, uh, then, and they were like, yeah, for some reason we’re gonna do it and COVID not a problem. And I was like, okay. I guess I’ll show up in guide. And then I got a call like four days ago.

[01:08:50] That was like, yeah, we actually don’t have any camps really going on that much. And we don’t have much guiding. And I was like, well, I guess I won’t. Yeah. Right. It’s confusing. And it seems like a day by day thing.

[01:09:02] Rich Ryan: [01:09:02] It does. And that’s, that’s why I like West Virginia. That’d be such a bummer. But now that they’ve made it happen, like I’m managing people at book and flights and like plan ongoing.

[01:09:10] Aaron Newell: [01:09:10] I mean, they’re pushing it so aggressively that I feel like they know something that we don’t where like the government has just been, like for sure you can put this on no matter what.

[01:09:22] Rich Ryan: [01:09:22] I bet their economy is pretty fragile there with anything happens. Like a bet, like even as the stimulate, the stimulus of freaking Spartan racers, come on.

[01:09:30] We’ll probably keep them down to floor.

[01:09:33] Aaron Newell: [01:09:33] Well, yeah, so. It’s kind of a weird setup for a national series race. You have to pay like three to $400,000 to have a ratio up. And then for North American championships, it’s like 400,000 I think is the minimum offer. And that’s why Tahoe didn’t want to pay for it again, it’s because there’s a lot of money and they think people show up in Tahoe anyway, and the tourism boards typically pay for it.

[01:09:57] Sorry, I’m getting really in depth on this, but, uh, but like, West Virginia at this point is like, we have nothing to spend money on and we have all this money for the, from the tourism board. Yeah.

[01:10:11] Rich Ryan: [01:10:11] So, yeah, cause that makes sense to me and for them to even announce it the way that they have and nothing else, cause they, like they said, there’s going to be three, three races and you can like drop or you can drop a race.

[01:10:22] And I was like, where are these other races going to be? Like,

[01:10:25] Aaron Newell: [01:10:25] when are you going to squeeze them in?

[01:10:26] Rich Ryan: [01:10:26] I can’t even imagine. And like I would Dhabi. I’ve no idea. Any, any speculation on that’d be equip big, old question Mark on that.

[01:10:35] Aaron Newell: [01:10:35] Yeah. Uh, I would, Dhabi has said that they will host one sporting event in 2020.

[01:10:43] Oh yeah. And there is an F one race on one of the weekends either before or after Spartan. And that is a sporting event. So Spartan verse F1

[01:10:55] Rich Ryan: [01:10:55] going dice. Um, well, we’ll see. We’ll see, man. So I’m, hopefully we’ll be out there somewhere, but I don’t. I don’t know, I’m almost not counting on it. I wanted to do like the shorter races. I was excited about DECA fit and high rocks and stuff, but I can’t imagine

[01:11:09] Aaron Newell: [01:11:09] that was even less likely to happen there inside

[01:11:12] Rich Ryan: [01:11:12] doors.

[01:11:13] I know.

[01:11:14] Aaron Newell: [01:11:14] Yeah, you can do the second mile, I guess. I don’t really know what that entails and it’s really short.

[01:11:18] Rich Ryan: [01:11:18] So I’ll skip that one. Yeah. Yeah. Leave that one

[01:11:24] Aaron Newell: [01:11:24] high rocks look sick. I want to do high rocks. It’s like stupid, heavy. And I just think that would be fun.

[01:11:32] Rich Ryan: [01:11:32] How do you think you’d do on that pole?

[01:11:34] Cause that’s all hand.

[01:11:35] Aaron Newell: [01:11:35] I think I would crush it. Yeah. And it’s weird. Cause I’ve talked to all those guys and they’re like your puny and a bitch and there’s no way you could do it. And then I like pushed like a 800 pound sled in Colorado without much issue. And some of the other guys couldn’t push it.

[01:11:50] Rich Ryan: [01:11:50] So, and that’s the thing like pushing it.

[01:11:53] I think you could just, I think you could do it like a carpet, I guess, is a problem with most people, but like even the guys where the strong stomach fat strong, um, but like the, the, the pole is what I’d be worried about. But since you have good, like really strong hands, like I think that’s what the limiter is on that.

[01:12:07] Not even the weight itself, just like being able to grab that rope and pull it. I think you do well. It’s a long run to it. Ks running. You can’t hide from an AK.

[01:12:17] Aaron Newell: [01:12:17] So the wall balls is where I would 100% fall apart, but now I’ve been doing wall balls. Don’t tell anyone it’s a secret

[01:12:26] Rich Ryan: [01:12:26] that’s at the end. Anyway, dude, you can just like get through it.

[01:12:29] I don’t think anyone’s having a fun time at that point. Um, so hopefully there’s one in New York in November. And then Boston in December. So for back East coast, Charlotte should make it happen and we’ll pull my work to people, find a socials or any, any, anything in particular,

[01:12:46] Aaron Newell: [01:12:46] uh, really exciting. Aaron Newell, 93.

[01:12:51] Rich Ryan: [01:12:51] Mark it down. Got it. Um, what we’ll do I appreciate you hopping on? I’ll leave that in the show notes, you know, think of super fun. Um, when, when I press stop, we’ll stay on here just for a minute there. Cool. All right. I appreciate everybody popping on listening.